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princevaliant1975
Them big hills west of Denver
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Joined: 04/08/2003
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Went to the National Endurocross in Denver to help a few guys I know/raced with in the past run their pit. All the while I was there, I was kicking myself for not getting prepared (physically) and entering into the TrialsCross class again on my Gas Gas 321 (one of the many classes available) Anyways it was fun to watch and help out. The one rider in the TrialsCross, Jesse Wessels (he is in his early 50's) owns/runs my old home track in Nebraska, he also rides regional trials competitively. The other riders were two in the Pro class that have had some good success though out the series Patrick Smage and Philip Smage, both have National Trials championship backrounds.
The track is designed to simulate almost all the types of terrain/obstacles you would encouter in a GNCC race all smashed into a small space. The track was pretty grueling with the amateurs running 4 lap heats and mains, while the Pros run 4 lap heats and 8 lap mains. It does not sound like much but the fatigue sets in coupled with the fact that there is no where to "rest" on the track because every obstacle is within less than 10 feet of each other. Not one rider top level Pro or Amateur could do a lap without either falling, dabbing, or stalling the bike, it is just that tough.
In the past there was a few rounds that had an ATV Endurocross (slightly modified track) on Sunday but apparently that didn't either go over well or not enough racers/interest to do it another season. As I remember the ATV's (even the 4x4 sport ute type) had a lot of difficulty even completing laps.
Anyways here are the pics
Jesse Wessels pit
Geoff Aaron's pit (10 time national trials champion)
A closer look at Geoff Aarons Christini all wheel drive KTM 300exc
The man himself
A Christini all wheel drive Kawasaki KXF450 on display
Lifted Brute Force
Team KTM
The Junk Man's video channel
ATV Magazine Blog
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250exridr
NH/MA
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Joined: 08/23/2005
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that track does NOT look easy
02 400ex with modZ
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ktmguy70
Greensboro, NC
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I read some time ago, that they banned the use of trials tires because they gave TOO MUCH traction, Maybe that rule has changed? I cannot see how a 2wheel drive Christini would be allowed to compete against a normal bike, if a trials tire cant be used? however I know in most of europe they run against normal bikes. Here in NC I have not seen any in the Harescramble series here.
At anyrate I have not witnessed this other than on youtube, and I must say its much more entertaining than moto-x!
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ktmguy70
Greensboro, NC
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I will say that , this track looks like a dream to me.. It sure looks fun.
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YOURADHERE
Louisiana
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Joined: 07/28/2006
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I had no idea those AWD bikes even existed.
07 z400-Yoshimura R3 full system,Uni filter,White Brothers CDI,Hydrodynamic +2 ST A Arms,G Force +2 axle,TCS Shocks w/remote rezzies,PEP stabilizer,RazrMXrears on ITP T9s, KendaMX fronts, Skat Trak 7paddle Haulers on Douglas .125s....I need more sig room
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princevaliant1975
Them big hills west of Denver
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Originally Endurocross rules stated "Run what ya brung" type of deal. Well the hot shot pros (that had no trials backround) whined enough that trails bikes had a distinct advantage and should be in a class of their own. So starting in 2008 they created the "TrialsCross" class and banned the use of trials tires on the full sized bikes because again the hot shots complained that it was an unfair advantage for the guys riding offroad bikes (motocross based bikes use a 19 inch wheel vs. an 18 that is standard on the offroad models) since trials tires don't go any bigger than 18 inch, and they also complained that it was cost prohibitive for the amateurs to retrofit an 18 inch wheel on a motocross bike. (it cost a little over $1K after the price of the tire)
Otherwise that is the only restriction on the bikes is wheelbase and tire restriction. For example there was a local guy following the circuit, did a complete custom job. According to him it was a KX85 engine warmed over with a 12oz flywheel weight put in a 2007 YZ125 frame/swingarm/forks, offset triple clamps, 1 gallon fabricated aluminum fuel tank, softer springs and a 21/18 wheel combo. And everything that could be safely swiss cheesed, was.
I rode it the first year it came to Denver in 2007, I could not physically finish my qualifying races  . The best choice of bike for this style of racing are 125cc 2 strokes with flywheel weight, 250cc 2 strokes with flywheel weight and porting to soften the "hit" or KTM's (defunct) 200EXC or 300 EXC 2 strokes. The 450cc 4 strokes seemed to prove too heavy and too much power to finesse, the 250cc 4 strokes faired better because they are lighter, but don't posses the lugging ability of a 450 or 250 2 stroke. Scorpa actually makes a hybrid bike blending offroad bike size with trials like nimbleness, although they are hard to get a hold of.
Christini is sort of like Service Honda in that they do conversions on existing bikes. They have a "all wheel drive" conversion for nearly all late model motocross bikes. They have been around for a while. About 4 years ago at a national trials I got a chance to take a VERY short spin on a bike like Geoff's. It tracks though soft stuff so well the front end almost never feels like it will wash out. Its very technical but it has clutches in the steering head to allow the front end to "slip" so it does not torque steer like you think and also if you wedge the front end on something it won't just totally destroy itself.
The Scorpa T-Ride 250 (Scorpa's use a modified Yamaha 250F engine for their 4 stroke models)
The reall kicker with the Christini is it costs about $4K + Labor for the conversion (if you let them do it), it also requires your frame and forks as a core when purchacing.
* This post was
edited 10/26/09 06:53pm by princevaliant1975 *
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ktmguy70
Greensboro, NC
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Yea, christini has been around for a few years now, Ive seen them on a crf250x, ktm 300, kx 250, etc..
So I guess I dont understand the whining, Probably a good 70% or so of folks who run gncc or hare scrambles swap in an 18 inch wheel for the 19" stocker on motocross bikes and I see on a good dry day, approximately 40% running trials tires. I suppose cost could be an issue, as you said. The choice of bikes is what interest me. I can tell there really is no room for major horsepower, it would probably wear you out quick. I would think a KTM (or similar) 200 would have been about the perfect blend. IM not sure Im a big fan of the new 150, and i,ve heard it through the grapevine KTM may bring the 200 back possibly in 2011 with major revisions.
What DOES surprise me is running a flywheel weight on a 125.. They are so anemic anyway, But I guess it would help them chug a little better. Anyway, looks interesting, and if it ever comes close by, Im gonna check it out.
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princevaliant1975
Them big hills west of Denver
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Well the whining I think started the very first year they ever did it because a relatively unknown trials rider was consistently finishing on the podium beating out long time VET pro motocrossers and offroad riders like Daemon Huffman, John Dowd and others. If I remember correctly I think it his name was Nick Mantzoros he was following the series around hauling his trials bike in his mom's car, no support, no real factory backing. He didn't win the series but ranked 5th overall and showed that this was an every man's sport, but I am sure the factory teams deemed it not fair as trials bikes are more nimble and over 100lbs lighter.
And as far as the 125s go, I am sure most of them were either 134 or 144cc BBK. I would love to see KTM bring back the 200, I rode a 98 back in the day and I thought it was a good balance, although at the time I was more into motocross racing and could not appreciate the scope of the bike, thinking it was a bit underpowered (for motocross).
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ktmguy70
Greensboro, NC
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Yes, I am consistently amazed at the sheer number of people who want / try to race GNCC, hare scrambles, (and now endurocross) and think the ticket is to get the most powerful bike they can afford.
I,ve seen MANY kdx 200s finish ahead of 450,s and 525/30, etc..
I tried to relay to my sons, to go fast, first learn to go slow.its all about control, and not fighting the machine. They havent figured it out yet.
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princevaliant1975
Them big hills west of Denver
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Your right, its predominantly in the ATV world where they think bigger is always better. In competitive situations it always comes down to rider before bike. Case in point a teammate of mine could consistantly put a worn out 1987 Honda 250X in the top 5 (in the mains) against 450's, 700 Raptors, Z400's, 400EX's in indoor TT style racing (generally an oval with a dog leg and 5 jumps) all because he could manuver and ride the machine to its abilities.
By the way here is a VIDEO recap of the action in Denver.
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