cchagros
New Hampshire
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Okay, so KTM came up with this brilliant idea of making their quads race-ready out of the box. Now Can Am and Yamaha are doing something similar. While they have a head start, lets be real. There are going to be mods above and beyond what the factory does, because thats just what we do, especially racers. Anyhow, hats off to KTM for the idea.
Now...here's something that I never fully realized until I saw it on paper.
MSRPs:
Honda TRX450R.................$6,999
Honda TRX450ER................$7,149
Yamaha YFZ450.................$7,299
Yamaha YFZ450R................$7,999
Kawasaki KFX450R..............$7,549
Suzuki LT-R450................$7,699
Polaris Outlaw 450 MXR........$7,399
Can Am DS 450 X mx............$8,949
Can Am DS 450.................$7,499
KTM 450SX....................$11,398
Okay...does anyone see where this is going? Look at the price difference between these 450s! Imagine the mods one could do with an extra $3,000-$4,000 to play with. How can KTM justify a MSRP $3,699 more than the LT-R, and $3,399 more then the new YFZ450R? Even the race ready version of the DS450 is $2,449 cheaper than the 450SX.
Here's the kicker. KTM doesn't stamp out nearly as many 450s as the other manufacturer, so dealer allocations are small, making them hard to come by. Hard to come by means little to no discounts from dealers (and honestly, why should they?). every other model listed can easily be found with heavy dealer discounts. This makes the spread even bigger. I dare say there isn't a machine listed here, that if you applied the savings to mods, wouldn't keep up with, or beat azz on the 5-digit KTM.
....and lets face it guys, we all like to modify our quads. Its part of the game...its half the fun of owning them. People post pics of their ATVs after every noticeable modification. If you bought it pre-modded from factory, you would only have reason to post pics once.
IMHO, KTM is being ridiculous with their pricing. Not too long ago, I posted that I thought sport riders got hosed at purchase time in comparison to ute riders. KTM has taken it to the next level. If they actually need to sell them for 11 grand, they should look into streamlining their manufacturing costs. If they are just trying to hit a home run on every unit, then I hope this all backfires, and their ATV line goes the way of the Cannondale Cannibal.
There is no justification for this, and its gotten out of hand.
...and Hodgeballer, before you reply, think carefully about what you will post, cuz you'll be pissin' into a strong headwind.
Side note: I think the price of the DS450X mx is much more realistic for such an application. Hell, at least keep it under 10 grand.
$11,398.00
WTF? No quad is worth that IMHO.
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wolverine350rider
YFZ > 450R
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Leftover 450rs and yfzs can be found for $5500 easy.
Thats $6,000 for mods.
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high octane junkie
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cchagros, my brother, i highly disagree.
this is my perspective, and why i'm purchasing a ktm 450sx.. how much is 40lbs. worth in a race quad? worth alot to me.
the new yfz450r is impressive, but it's not race ready. 405 lbs. wet, no nerf bars, no tether. you can remove the parking brake and the headlights to shave a little weight, but you'll add that back on with the nerf bars etc. the ktm is 363 lbs. wet, with nerf bars and tether. truly race ready.
the ktm isn't corked up like the other manufacturers bikes are. you can take this bike to the track is pure straight from the showroom floor, be able to make the necessary adjustments for the particular track conditions (shock compression, rebound, ride height, camber, castor) and be competitive.
the ktm 450sx motor STOCK outperforms any ltr450 3 mod (full aftermarket exhaust, fuel controller, filter) motor on the dyno and more importantly on the track.
lets say me or you has the money to make a new yfz450r or ltr450 a true track competitor parallel or beyond the ktm. to parallel it, we'd have to purchase: hydraulic clutch, nerf bars, tether, full exhaust, fuel controller, rear beadlocks, (20" front tires, 18" rear tires for the yamaha), and caster adjustable upper a-arms. if you want to easily adjust the ride height on the front arms, you'd need to purchase new ones or purchase a special tool. however there's one thing that you'll never be able to equal the ktm.. the 40-50 lb. diet is has on these two quads.
i use ltr450 and the yfz450r as an example because they're the only two i'm familiar with. from what i understand the can-am ds450mx version has nerf bars and caster adjustable arms, but also has about 25-30 pounds on the ktm with all fluids, and it's choked up like the rest of the other 450's. i just dislike the look of it altogether.
i don't disagree that with the savings of the other 450's you can utilize that money and make a more powerful or better handling quad than the ktm, but not both without exceeding the savings. my ltr450 handles better than the ktm, but i also have $4,000 into suspension. my motor isn't faster, i'll need to spend a couple thousand to achieve that, and the ltr450 is heavier by far. it doesn't matter how much i spend i'll never be able to put my ltr450 on a 50 lb. diet to compete with the ktm!
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cchagros
New Hampshire
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Good post HOJ, and its great to see ya around the forum again...we've missed ya.
I see for you the weight savings means the world, but obviously people are going to continue racing 450Rs, YFZs, and LT-Rs, and they will continue to win on them. I'm not trying to take away from the fact the KTM is a fine machine, but I still maintain it is overpriced.
When figuring the value of the performance parts on the KTM, you have to keep in mind the value of what it is replacing. For instance, take this example (fictitious numbers):
Hydraulic Clutch $400.00
Cable Drawn Clutch on other quads $200.00
Net: $200.00 upgrade value.
To me, it seems like KTM is charging you for a complete bike AND the upgrade parts, rather than surcharging for the upgrade difference. I still think it shouldn't go over 10 grand on the MSRP.
Forgive me for overlooking the weight variable in my original post. When you ride a 602 pound ute, and weigh 265 pounds yourself, you tend to steer clear of that subject.
BTW HOJ, you know as well as I do that SX you're getting won't be staying stock. You don't have it in you to leave it be.
* This post was
edited 12/27/08 02:55am by cchagros *
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princevaliant1975
Them big hills west of Denver
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This is a good discussion. And not being as educated in following the developments as closely as I do the 450 dirt bike counterparts, I will try to make an anology. I have to agree with HOJ on this one, and I think it comes down to the fact that the sport/race atv market is still at the toddler stage compared to other forms of offroad mentality (but its picking up momentum). Those who lived or read about how American motocross came about through the early 60's and in to about the mid 70's will see that the sport/race atvs are sort of following a similar pattern, and the pattern is this.
The American motorcycle buying public saw motorcycles as purely functional means of transportation, transportation that needed to be street legal AND if it was dirt capable that was just a added bonus (you could see this visa-versa as well) Ok so of course their were the European/American/Canadian brands that made superior (in some respects) dirt/motocross bikes to the Japanese bikes of the time (in those days dedicated Japanese motocross bikes were nearly non existant) but thos bikes were expensive to the tune of about $1000 for say the latests greates 250cc Husky,CZ,Matchless,Jawa ect... while the humble Yamaha DT1(250cc) msrpéd at about $400. A great value in the Americans eyes as this bike was also street legal as well as a dirt bike that could be stripped down and raced(sort of) albeit it was no match for a Husky,CZ,Jawa, ect... unless you were (A. a damn good rider, (B did a host of homebrew modifications to the frame, engine, suspension as even Yamahas GYT-kit were not enough to make it competitive. Now fast forward to the late 70's and the Japanese started building dedicated motocross and offroad/trail bikes and continues to refine them because the market is now mature enough to do so.
See where I am going with this? The Japanese are still trying to make a "do-all" 450 ATV whilst KTM (and possibly Gas Gas and Sherco) build their machines for niche markets, I mean look at their offroad motorcycle line, they almost build a bike for every type of rider or motorcycle dicipline (makes it confusing even for me!) but most offroad riders who switch to a KTM,Gas Gas, TM, Huseburg, Husquervarna rarely switch back to a Japanse brand mostly because after they get it tuned for them, its just a far superior bike, but at a higher price of course.
I do how ever see the atv market breaking down into some niche markets following suite to the motorcycle side, with "play quads", "sport", "offroad", "mx" ect... but I still think some of that is years away though, I mean were are the "250F" based machines? Those should have been here 2 years ago.
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blasterfan84
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pricing is a lot more reasonable here, the KTM is the same price bacause KTM has realized that with the dollars closer(they were at least) that the prices should also be closer, although they kinds did it wrong lol. Canadian prices are much closer, an sx is still 11 grand, but the DS is only 800 less, and the LTR is 9 grand, here the price difference is worth it because the gap isnt so big.
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cchagros
New Hampshire
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blasterfan84 wrote:pricing is a lot more reasonable here, the KTM is the same price bacause KTM has realized that with the dollars closer(they were at least) that the prices should also be closer, although they kinds did it wrong lol. Canadian prices are much closer, an sx is still 11 grand, but the DS is only 800 less, and the LTR is 9 grand, here the price difference is worth it because the gap isnt so big.
Okay...good ro know. I can see it working out better in your region than here in the States.
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high octane junkie
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i'm liking this discussion, everyone here has valid points and it seems like the atv news forum of old, where we can debate on a particular subject and keep it respectful.
cchagros you're right about something in particular.. there's no way i'd leave that quad stock. i'm not too happy about how much travel the front suspension has. i'd eventually change the arms and shocks. if i were gonna race it in WORCS, i'd change the bars to flexx, but for mx i'd probably leave the stock magura bars on.
i'd also get into the motor ofcourse, but it would be minimal.. p&p, cam, maybe valve and a slightly higher compression piston. but all this aside, i'm still going to have the lightest mx quad on the market, for just about the same price! i'm not close to being done with my WORCS LTR450, and with purchase price and modifications to date, i'm into it $15,000 and i haven't gotten into anything motor yet, not even exhaust (i can guarantee atleast another $6,000) and after all that i'll have a 50 lb. disadvantage.
one thing i can say about the ktm quad that i absolutely cannot say about any other quad.. i can literally take it from the showroom floor straight to the track and if i'm familiar with the track, i can be competitive!
the big prince is right, and kudos to ktm for making for making a purpose specific quad. the other manufacturers are trying to cater to everyone a little bit too much, and usually cater to nobody perfectly. this quad definitely isn't for everyone, very few people considering the industry as a whole. my local ktm dealership isn't even going to have one on the showroom floor at all.. they have one 505sx, and that's a demo.
i'm not trying to push my opinions on you at all, and if i were in your position being that this quad was definitely not built for you than i'd see things the same way that you do. the ktm 450sx is more than just an expensive race-ready quad, it's a statement that alot of people have been waiting a long time for.. "ATV MX is a sport, and we're taking it seriously." it won't be long until ATV MXers are a common household name like dirtbike MXers and FMXers are. everyone is somewhat familiar with the likes of Carmichael, Bubba, Twitch, McGrath etc.. soon enough the ATV MX, CC, and desert guys will be as known as well.
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high octane junkie
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cchagros wrote:at least keep it under 10 grand.
$11,398.00
WTF? No quad is worth that IMHO.
i keep posting these long posts and i keep forgetting the important main point.. what i'm trying to say is, in my opinion, the $11,400 price tag is justified. i know a few ATV hillshooters, one of the FSA main competitors is my best friend, and he spends an EXTREME amount of money in concentration to shaving weight.
he also spends alot of money replacing parts, because you're sacrificing durability for less weight sometimes. i'm still waiting to see how well the KTM holds up.
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princevaliant1975
Them big hills west of Denver
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high octane junkie wrote:.... it's a statement that alot of people have been waiting a long time for.. "ATV MX is a sport, and we're taking it seriously." it won't be long until ATV MXers are a common household name like dirtbike MXers and FMXers are. everyone is somewhat familiar with the likes of Carmichael, Bubba, Twitch, McGrath etc.. soon enough the ATV MX, CC, and desert guys will be as known as well.
hit the nail on the head! I guess this was my original point, you just expressed it much better than I did. The market is just not quite there yet in terms of true purpose built machines. Back in the day it was the Brits and Europeans building the purpose built dirt cycles for motocross in the late 50's through the 70's not the Japanese as most might think, as a matter of fact they didn't start making "good" motocross bikes until about 77ish, with only a few noted exceptions ("works YZ's" and the "Elsinore")
In this case (ATV's) KTM is leading the way. IMO the future looks bright ONLY if the mentality of the average ATV buyer shifts a little bit.
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