cchagros
New Hampshire
Moderator
Joined: 02/23/2005
View Profile
 Offline
|
Have any of you ridden with people that like to ride, but they don't really understand the mechanics of their ATV, or how the machine is actually supposed to be ridden? In other words, what would happen if you put said rider on a 450 class sport quad and told them to go ahead and ride?
I believe some of the manufacturers have gone too far with a few things that actually keep the rider from learning to ride. I'd like to list a few things that, IMHO, are detrimental to the safety of this sport.
1. Single lever braking. I believe this to be the worst feature on any quad PERIOD. A new rider should be forced to learn how to modulate front and rear brakes separately. Have you ever not quite made it up a steep hill, and you had to lean over the bars and back down the hill while dragging the front tires by braking? This is a situation where you NEED to stay off the rear brake, as any rear brake application when backing down a steep can flip the ATV over backwards on you. If you have single lever braking a la Polaris or Can Am, you are screwed, blued, and tattoed, as you absolutely cannot engage the front brakes only. I think most of us have done the opposite as well, riding down a steep hill and dragginf the rear tires only. I guess you can do it on the aforementioned models with the foot brake, but if you make the error of squeezing the hand lever, you're applying unwanted front braking forces. In very technical terrain, such as rock crawling, anything other than separate controls for front and rear brakes can be bad news. In the grand quest to make the braking system "Braking for Dummies", I feel they have sacrificed versatility and safety, and they are not forcing the rider to learn how brakes should indeed be applied.
2. Engine Braking. This can be a great thing, but I wish we had the option to turn it off and only use it when wanted. People say it helps retain control when descending a steep hill. HOGWASH! Remember, the key word here is "control". When relying on engine braking, the rider isn't "controlling" anything. There is still no better way to maintain control of your quad on a descent than good old fashioned proper modulation of the front and rear brakes. Nobody seems to know how to use brakes anymore. One member used to complain that Polarises only had engine braking on the rear wheels, and it was very scary on some descents. Ok...fine. Whats the matter with using your brakes?!?!?
Once again, engine braking has kept us from learning to properly use the brakes, and has kept us "dumber."
3. Visco Lock Front Differential. This system is not bad at all, but it needs one thing to make it almost perfect. There should be an option to leave it locked. Oh, but nooooooooo...that would mean the rider has to flip a switch or push a button! First, it takes a few wheel revolutions for the locker to kick in..... I can get over that.
The very second you let off the throttle, it unlocks, and you have to spin the tires again to get it to re-lock. This can be a pain, especially when rockcrawling, as you don't see enough tire spin to engage the locker many times on rock. However, this is not my biggest gripe about Visco Lock. I wrote earlier about people not using their brakes and relying too much on engine braking. If you were descending a slippery steep hill on a Visco Lock equipped ATV, and your 4WD system is engaged, you could potentially have a safety issue there.
Visco Lock cannot be engaged when creeping down a hill, therefore when the engine braking kicks in, it affects the two rear wheels, but only the one wheel in the front that is engaged, since Visco is disengaged. Let me ask you. Would you feel safe knowing that one of the front brake assemblies on the front of your car or truck was inoperative? Of course not. In a panic stop, this would cause the car/truck to slide sideways and quite possibly spin out.
Same goes for engine braking with Visco lock. 3-wheel braking is not my idea of safety. Again, this doesn't affect the experienced rider as much, because he or she will also be using the actual brakes on the machine to keep things straight. However, the same machine that sports Visco lock also sports single lever braking (Renegades have 2 separate levers), so the dumbed down version of the modern rider could potentially have a problem on his or her hands.
Todays big machines are all well in excess of 600 pounds, with some going over the 800 pound mark. Couple that with crazy power production from todays big bore motors, and you get a 600 pound plus death machine in the grips of the uneducated rider. We all know when things go wrong, they go wrong very quickly, and most times, it hurts like hell.
This brings me to the end of my rant. In closing, give me separate brake controls, on demand engine braking, and make systems like Visco Lock with a manual override system, and that will take care of machine issues. Hopefully, this will help force people to actually learn how to ride so they don't hurt themselves, or others. Anything that prevents a rider from learning how things work is not a good thing.
Anyone else care to add?
2010 Honda Rincon, Red, Bone Stock
2005 Suzuki King Quad, Yellow, also bone stock.
|
cchagros
New Hampshire
Moderator
Joined: 02/23/2005
View Profile
Offline
|
bump
|
zigafoose
west virginia
Elite Member
Joined: 08/29/2005
View Profile
|
I find myself being with you 100% on all the issues you talked about.
For me half the fun of riding is me being in control of the quad its no different than driving a sports car you need to control and feel what the machine is doing.
You did a thread on sport riders taking up the kazoo by not getting much for their money which is true but in return for the lack of technology they are able to be in control of the quad (no engine brake ect)
That said I still choose UTE over sport.
|
princevaliant1975
Them big hills west of Denver
Elite Member
Joined: 04/08/2003
View Profile
Offline
|
Nicely put CC, and this issue is central to my distase for CERTAIN quad riders (the ones that fail to learn even basic techniques) I might have to add I keep seeing that Honda commercial for their electric power steering. Now I can see it for what its worth, a technical innovation and great for truely utility and work on a jobsite, farm ect..., but thats it. Part of riding ANY offroad vehicle is the fact that you need some skill and endurance/fitness to ride. Powersteering just makes the average rider lazy IMO.
The Junk Man's video channel
ATV Magazine Blog
|
cchagros
New Hampshire
Moderator
Joined: 02/23/2005
View Profile
Offline
|
princevaliant1975 wrote: Powersteering just makes the average rider lazy IMO.
WOW! How did I miss that one? I rode a Grizzly 700 with EPS once.......once. Let me tell you the very first thing that came to my mind, as this was on a trail through the woods.
remember when your parents/grandparents used to drive cars that weighed as much as the average cruise ship, and took up the same amount of real estate as a small home? Remember the power steering on those. If you ran over all of Santas elves at the same time, you would never feel anything through the steering wheel. If you had to take a corner harder than usual, you had no feel for what those old Caddys and Town Car types was doing. How can you truly feel what an ATV is doing, if your feedback through the bars is numbed? For some, this system will work out fine, but as someone who rides hard, I find it disconcerting that I can't "feel" my front wheels.
|
princevaliant1975
Them big hills west of Denver
Elite Member
Joined: 04/08/2003
View Profile
Offline
|
I would agree, that fact is backed up by the fact that most top pro riders (MX and offroad) dislike (motocross) bikes that have rubber/elastomer mounted handlebars/tripple clamps as they limit the "feel". Now I know a lot of that is personal preference but CC has it right you NEED to have feedback to accuratly choose optimal lines on the track or trail.
|
blasterfan84
lindsay On
Elite Member
Joined: 06/17/2006
View Profile
Offline
|
lots of people hate the flexx bars because they numb the vibration, i dont mind either way but they just help my wrists if a screw up.
what about polarises plastic levers/throttles
BRP new 400 EFI isnt half as good as the carb, it feels really boggy and gets pwned in a drag against the carbed one, plus its a pain in the ass to start
and why is there a choke on the EFI kingquad, i thought the big thing with EFI was easy cold starting, just press a button and go.
09 450SX, fourwerx seat,, hipers, akro Slipon, race techs, fourwerx hood, cycra handguards, wiseco 12.5:1 piston, FCI intake, and some other goodies
2010 Sponsors, KTM Canada,HB Cycle,Race Toyota, Parts Canada ,Motovan,Fourwerx Carbon, smith optics
|
princevaliant1975
Them big hills west of Denver
Elite Member
Joined: 04/08/2003
View Profile
Offline
|
blasterfan84 wrote:lots of people hate the flexx bars because they numb the vibration, i dont mind either way but they just help my wrists if a screw up.
....
Well the Flexx bars are a little different, I am talking about rubber isolated tripple clamp bar mounts. But some people still don't prefer the "floppyness" that the Flexx are designed for.
|
blasterfan84
lindsay On
Elite Member
Joined: 06/17/2006
View Profile
Offline
|
true, i love them personally
|
cchagros
New Hampshire
Moderator
Joined: 02/23/2005
View Profile
Offline
|
blasterfan84 wrote:
and why is there a choke on the EFI kingquad, i thought the big thing with EFI was easy cold starting, just press a button and go.
There is no choke, that I know of. Are you spraking of the 700/750?
|
|
